120Hz suck?

[grafpt]

I could not find a thread on discussion of opinions on 120Hz tvs...anyways,
I was in best buy a week or so ago looking for a new TV, I sat in their little super-high-def section and watched clips from some blu rays. It was all dandy until i noticed the frame rate being very smooth and "un-movie like" in my opinion. Up until this point id never watch anything on a 120Hz+ TV and wasnt ever sure the huge difference (beside making MSNBC lovers happy by making scrolling text sharper :P) So i guess I would like to know, Who Likes this? I think its horrible. Feature films mostly look they way they do bc they run at 24fps and that give its that "movie look" why take that away by increasing frame rate? reminds me of the pan'n'scan fullframes from vhs/ early dvd releases lol

[Jcole20323]

Its not the 120hz that makes the picture like that. Its the smoothing effect that u can choose to turn on or off on your tv. Usually you can choose from high, low or off. Im pretty sure all 120hz tvs are capable at running blu rays at 24fps. My tv is 120hz and I turn the smoothing effect off and Blu rays look awesome. a lot of 120hz tvs do 24fps more accurately because they use 5:5 pulldown as opposed to 3:2 like most 60hz tvs. There is a thread called 120hz vs 60hz. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ght=120hz+60hz.

[Rob J in WNY]

grafpt,

You are new here, so we'll go easy on you.

First off, welcome to the forums.

Now, it's time for you learn three basic truths about 120Hz LCD TVs.

First, the "un-movie like" motion you see is not because of the 120Hz TV in of itself, but because of the "frame interpolation" feature being turned on. This feature, which goes by different names with different manufacturers (Sony calls it "MotionFlow" for instance), can be shut off for natural motion.

Second, the 120Hz screen refresh rate CANNOT be turned off. It is always running, and is inherent to the operation of the TV. With frame interpolation feature turned off, you will get the more natural film motion you, and many others, prefer.

Third, there is a very high advantage of 120Hz LCD TVs. This is in that refreshing the screen 120 times per second allows for smooth, even "pulldown" of various video sources. 30 frames-per-second video comes in at an even 4:4 pulldown. 60fps comes in at 2:2 and 24fps (such as Blu-ray movies) comes in at 5:5 pulldown. Standard 60Hz TVs must do perform an uneven 3:2 pulldown which can incite increased motion "judder." 120Hz TVs cover all the bases and allow for smooth, natural video motion.

There ya go! Enjoy the forums. There's a lot to be learned and there are some really knowledgeable people on here who can answer just about any question you have, from the technology of Blu-ray to movie knowledge!

[grafpt]

thx a lot for Jcole for forum link and Thx Rob for insight on that. I was very confused when the "surprisingly knowledgeable" best buy employee told me the TV is sort of creating its own frames lol

[sokrman14]

I think its an awful gimmick to smooth the picture. A good TV with a good video processor will look just fine w/o 120Hz. That is why I don't see why people think LCD is better than plasma. 120Hz is an attempt to make LCD comparable to plasma, but it still doesnt even do that.

[Jcole20323]

Ha yeah whenever I am in Best Buy looking at tvs and one of the "tv experts" walks up to me I tell them to take a hike.

[TRIGON]

Grafpt,

While 120 hz does improve "motion blurring" its benefits vary depending on who you talk to. Personally I like it but it wasnt a "deal breaker" for me when i bought my LCD. At the time the increase in cost was around $200 and i just couldnt justify it. Now a days it seems its becoming standard in all LCD's. My TV uses some type of 24p True cinema mode that supposedly converts the refresh rate to 48hz (instead of 60) so the images are smoother. I'm not really sure if this is Sony BS or what , but I have had this TV for 1 1/2 years and have yet to encounter much motion blurring at all. I have seen other LCD's in stores (including Sony's) that the blurring was pretty awful. I guess it depends on the model/type. There is a "smooth motion" setting that others have mentioned that can usually be turned off. My recommendation would be to try out as many tv's as possible and find the one you like the best. Try not to listen to a lot of the trash talk out there about what you "must get" and pick one your really happy with... good luck..

[blarneyrubble]

In my opinion, I prefer the naturally fast response of plasma over the "interpolation" of 120hz LCD or projection.

[rubystone356]

I own the philips 47pfl7403D/F7. it can do the 120 refresh rate. I like it. I know that many do not.

Jacob

[Hep]

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

Now, it's time for you learn three basic truths about 120Hz LCD TVs...

Those are the truths of 120 Hz, it's a win-win, and I commend you on such a succinct explanation.

[crazyBLUE]

I have had my 120Hz LCD for over A year & could not be Happier !

[ryoohki]

I also like 4:4 effect on my AE3000 it's not 120, it 96hz tought... but the processing is really good. I can choose OFF, 1 or 2 (1 being 2 frame, 2 being 4 frame)...

[Another_Dude]

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

grafpt,
Rob's Post

Thank you Rob, you saved me a bunch of typing.


My projector is 1080p/120hz. 120" screen.


It does 24p as natural as the theater. I can also watch live broadcast sports that look as smooth as fresh homemade whipped butter.


People should take the time to understand the technology before they start threads about how they don't like it.

[SDBlu]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

I have had my 120Hz LCD for over A year & could not be Happier !

+1

I love 120Hz. It is all just a matter of Personal Preference.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by MarcosG

+1

I love 120Hz. It is all just a matter of Personal Preference.

I totally agree with you Marcos !

As with everything , Everyone will like something or not !

[crazyBLUE]

That is the second Vary well put post Rob

[Rob J in WNY]

The most important aspect of screen refresh rates is to produce an "even" pulldown scheme.

120Hz = 5:5 pulldown on 24p movies.
96Hz = 4:4 pulldown on 24p movies.
72Hz = 3:3 pulldown on 24p movies.
48Hz = 2:2 pulldown for 24p movies (becoming too slow, producing some visible screen flicker).

It's when we move into an uneven frame-cadence, such as 3:2 (or 2:3) on a 60Hz screen that is playing a 24p movie that we are not seeing motion as natural as it was originally filmed.

What's funny is that we've been putting up with uneven 3:2 pulldown for a lot of years now - really decades. Our old, consumer grade CRT TVs all ran at 60Hz (there may have been some very high-end exceptions), and the motion judder was there. Today's fixed-pixel displays tend to reveal judder more because we are looking at larger, and (generally) more resolute imagery.

24 frames-per-second motion is reasonably smooth, but not extraordinarily so. It was standardized, way back when, as the best compromise between what is more-or-less enough motion resolution for the human eye to follow and the most efficient use of film material. Steady pans often reveal a touch of the "stop motion" effect of limiting the frame rate to 24 per second.

Higher frame rates have, of course, come to pass, which is where we get the smooth motion of "live" video, which can arise from frame rates between 30 and 60 per second. It is the interpolated frames which are added by today's 120Hz TVs which can make film look like "video."

I am an advocate for turning off the frame interpolation feature of 120Hz TVs in order to maximize picture quality on movies. Interpolated frames, being "non-native," are not going to be 100% accurate to the source material, and I feel that for all the smoother motion they do produce, the picture quality relaxes a bit. I have yet to observe frame interpolation software which does not produce picture-degrading video artifacts as well.

[Rob J in WNY]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

That is the second Vary well put post Rob

You mean my post above?

Thanks, CB!

(I deleted and reposted it - sorry! )

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

You mean my post above?

Thanks, CB!

(I deleted and reposted it - sorry! )

You should be !!!!

[Derb]

120hz refresh rate is needed to view 24P natively.

The manufacturers just took advantage of this tech so they can better sell their product. In Sony's case, Motionflow. The most common response from people who view it say it looks more like video instead of film. Maybe thats alright if you have 0 intentions of watching HD.