My Thoughts on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD

[MMtech]

1. Two Formats. I hate this whole two format that does the same thing ordeal. The Film Companies should have just gone with one format. Either we're going to have both formats forever (meaning until a newer format replaces it) or one will just go away. Either way, people are going to be unhappy. When/if one does lose, then a lot of people who bought the players / the discs will have wasted their money... but if both stay then we'll get this garbage of formats getting exclusives and/or better versions. An example would be the HD-DVD of Phantom of the Opera, which has true HD surround sound compared to my Blu-Ray version, which does not. It seems like I'm having to turn the volume way way up to hear dialogue, only to have my eardrums blown out when music starts. It's not like that for the DVD version I have.

2. Exclusives. I can understand exclusives and/or better versions for games, but not for movies. If you want to play all of the games that you want to play, then you have to buy multiple consoles. It shouldn't be the same for movies at all. I shouldn't have to buy both an HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Player. Buying both is out of the question for everyone who earns a normal, or even above average wage.

3. Bad Transfers? It seems rather stupid that a lot of blu-ray / HD-DVD transfers have been absolute garbage. I've read multiple reviews where a lot of issues about High Definition transfers seem to be:

Audio is no better than DVD version.
Video is no better than DVD version.
Shaky Frames (meaning the picture wobbles, or shakes in certain parts of the film)
A complete lack of Special Features (something I enjoyed very much about DVDs over VHS)

Now, those issues are just for some of the High Definition transfers, but some is still unacceptable. If they can't transfer all movies properly, then why bother? I shouldn't have to read online reviews to see if they botched up the transfer or not. I do wish they would sort this whole mess out though. Aren't these people doing the transfers supposed to be professional? They sound like amateurs. I am a fan of High Definition, but not a fan of wasting my money.

4. Video Quality. As for the quality of the good transfers... they're okay. Nothing too amazing. Believe it or not, blu-ray discs are still extremely compressed in terms of video. I don't believe it will ever be technically possible to get uncompressed video. It would take multiple Gigabytes per second to get uncompressed video. I've also noticed that most of the scenes seem to look great, while a lot of them still look like they do on DVD. This is of course ridiculous. They need to make the entire film look high def, not just a good majority of it.

5. Sony. I am glad that Sony is pushing Blu-Ray. Since Sony is such a huge film company, movies like Casino Royale and Spider-Man 3 will only be on DVD and Blu-Ray, and not HD-DVD. I know that I said that I'm against exclusives, but if it's used as a means to end this silly 2 High Def Format garbage, then I'm all for it. With Sony having exclusives on Blu-Ray, it won't be long before HD-DVD is elminated, and then Exclusives won't exist anymore since there will only be one high def format. Again, I do feel for the people who have purchased HD-DVD Players and Discs, but they should have realized that Sony is a huge film company, and that since they were supporting Blu-Ray that all of their films would not be available on HD-DVD.

6. Disney. Disney is stupid. The sooner this war ends the better, but you have to look at the simple fact that Disney is moronic. I'll explain further, of course. Disney is agreeing to release their stupid films on Blu-Ray only if Adult Entertainment is not released on Blu-Ray as well.... retarded, right? Yes.

Believe it or not, Adult Entertainment was actually the biggest reason that VHS won over Beta Max. AE was exclusive on VHS, and people are horny so VHS won and Beta Max became obsolete. Same thing is now happening here. Because of Disney, it looks that AE will be exclusive on HD-DVD.

Disney just needs to forget this whole deal. Obviously they need to look at the fact that they released their movies on VHS and DVD, and that AE is also on VHS and DVD. No one in their right minds makes the assumption that Disney must condone AE if they're releasing movies on the same format. There should only be one format, so they need to realize that the prudes will realize that there's no choice but to release their movies on the same format on which AE is released. Not that it would matter, because it's a very stupid connection to make between the two.

HD-DVD would be obsolete far quicker if it weren't for Disney.

7. Ultimately, I'm a bit cautious about Blu-Ray. It seems to me like I will be wasting my money by starting a Blu-Ray Collection, only to have a newer format come out too soon. I'm hoping that it will at least be a decade before a newer format is released, but with talk of 100 and 200 GB discs in the works already...

[Slackr89]

1. It should've been only one format, but Microsoft decided to pay off companies to keep it going so they didn't have to give in to Sony. Well thats my take on it. If current trends keep up (which is very likely) Blu-ray will be the one format coming out of the war

2. For me it was preference. There are many more PS3 exclusive games that i like than 360 games. And Blu-ray has all my favorite studios supporting it.

3. It'll change, I hope companies stop pushing these Blu-ray versions out so quickly, and get better transfers.

4. My thoughts exactly.

5. It'll end the format war quicker with Sony support. Comeon Universal, come to the dark side

6. Thats why kids have internet these days. Disney shouldn't be involved online, until pron (sp, i know ) is taken off. Adult Entertainment is based more on the internet than on physical disks since beta vs vhs. Not so much the deciding factor anymore.

[MMtech]

Originally Posted by Slackr89

3. It'll change, I hope companies stop pushing these Blu-ray versions out so quickly, and get better transfers.

It almost seems pointless to even buy blu-rays then if they're just rushed transfers. If they're going to be botching them now, and then just fixing them later, then anyone buying blu-rays now will of course be getting the botched versions.

Very Stupid and Dumb and Stupid some more.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

1. TrueHD track or not, the mix should be the same. In other words, the magnitude should be louder on the TrueHD track, but the center channel shuold still be lower in volume compared to the sound speakers (someone correct me if I'm wrong by stating why). You should be able to adjust the center channel to your tastes.

2. Exclusives serve the same purpose as they do for gaming consoles...to help secure market share. If you are having a battle, wouldn't you like to have troops to fight with?

3. It is not necessarily a bad transfer that yields a not so great picture. At this stage in the game, it is mostly "the master" that's the problem. You can't turn a degraded film into a great picture to watch. It just doesn't work that way. There is more information about this in the movie section of this forum, I think (it the "sticky" section at the top of the page).

4. Uncompressed video is not the goal. The goal is to have a title look almost if not as the same as the original film. Remember they can not make a release look better than the master. If you see issues, you might want to blame the director for the look of the film. It is generally the way he/she wanted it viewed.

5. I'm glad Sony is pushing Blu-ray as well. Without Sony, this would be a very different format war.

6. I don't know how true that is since Vivid - adult entertainment company - is releasing on both formats. Of course, 2 porn titles have been on Blu-ray since Dec. in Japan (same region as the US). So, I don't think this is totally true. Plus, people get their porn via the Internet. DVD porn sales have not been strong, so to think it will be on HD is a little misguided.

7. There is little need for concern. Blu-ray is made for the long haul. 100GB and 200GB applications are mainly for the PC market. 100GB and 200GB movie discs would be great for 1440p and slightly above. If that happens, it will still be Blu-ray so no worries.

I have almost 1700 SD DVDs. I am looking to go far beyond that with Blu-ray. And, Blu-ray has the flexibility to make that more than a reality. Of course, there is always some chance something could change that timeline, but it is unlikely.

Sit out the HD format...Is it possible to really skip an entire movie format? I know it is, but that would be too painfully not being able to get the titles you want. You know...like VHS only people for the past few years.

I had a really good read on this, very detail,
and very useful information.Thanks.

[Deciazulado]

mmmm. I have lots of Blu-ray titles and as I slowly go throught them on a 1080p display, most of the discs I've seen range from good to excellent. A few are better than 35mm film. I really am amazed when people are complaining about the image all the time. For decades nothing was up to the big screen. What do people want from 35mm film and BDs? 70mm? Seems all you want is 70mm quality, when you haven't had that in a decade or two, if ever, except for IMAX speciallty presentations!
How so? You're not that demanding of theaters! But you are of discs? For years watching movies on video was a pain, being used to 35mm projection, and now I mostly smile when I watch a properly transfered BD.

Yes transfers can improve, no doubt, and when they do, they might be even closer to 70mm than to 35mm but I don't think many people can see the quality that is there on the discs to date.

[pbnbcr]

Originally Posted by MMtech

Either we're going to have both formats forever (meaning until a newer format replaces it) or we're going to keep both.

Isn't that the same thing?

[shock_terminal]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

mmmm. I have lots of Blu-ray titles and as I slowly go throught them on a 1080p display, most of the discs I've seen range from good to excellent. A few are better than 35mm film. I really am amazed when people are complaining about the image all the time. For decades nothing was up to the big screen. What do people want from 35mm film and BDs? 70mm? Seems all you want is 70mm quality, when you haven't had that in a decade or two, if ever, except for IMAX speciallty presentations!
How so? You're not that demanding of theaters! But you are of discs? For years watching movies on video was a pain, being used to 35mm projection, and now I mostly smile when I watch a properly transfered BD.

Yes transfers can improve, no doubt, and when they do, they might be even closer to 70mm than to 35mm but I don't think many people can see the quality that is there on the discs to date.

I agree Blu-Ray looks great and there are some titles that are below par.

No 1080p transfer looks better then 35mm, we shoot 2k and 4k images to 35mm. 35mm has a higher resolution.
You could say it looks better in the respect that your seeing a smaller more dense version, but 35mm is still far superior.

Like I said though, Blu-ray looks fantastic, it's just a rather large claim to say it's better then the Film it's transferred from.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by MMtech

It almost seems pointless to even buy blu-rays then if they're just rushed transfers. If they're going to be botching them now, and then just fixing them later, then anyone buying blu-rays now will of course be getting the botched versions.

Very Stupid and Dumb and Stupid some more.

Kingdom of Heaven was a fine transfer IMO..as was Casino Royale...

[The Don]

I'd also like to add that this is a different market than the one that DVD had to convince...

the market now is concerned with numbers and better technology...

average people actually know or have heard what a gigabyte is....

the market right now is more willing to accept change as we are now the fast-food society.....everything changes fast and constantly...DVD came in right when this era started...BD came in at the right time...

only if the economy was doing as good as it was then...BD would have an even bigger result..

[AlexKx]

I thought that Blu-Ray was going to be able to increase itself in size in the years to come...so why a new format for 100 and 200 GB? What the hell? You mean there will be new format in ten years from now? Then WHAT IS THE ****IN' POINT if every time the public get started with their collections they become irrelevant? As it is the public are having a hard time excepting that yet again a new format is comming along. D.V.D. is only ten years old and frankly 25 years is not a long time to be be able to purchase films on anything to be honest. This is just outright corruption. Is there ANY aspect in life where there is not corruption? I have said it before...the entertainment industry has a few months left to decide that Blu-Ray is the next format otherwise forget it and stay with D.V.D. Nothing is worth this when apparently hologram films are already in the works BEFORE 3-D films will be released. The entertainment industry had not only figure it out but figure it out quick. ...and for that matter there will be no point in adopting HD DVD if that is suppose to be the next format. COMPLETELY pointless as far as I am concerned.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by AlexKx

I thought that Blu-Ray was going to be able to increase itself in size in the years to come...so why a new format for 100 and 200 GB? What the hell? You mean there will be new format in ten years from now? Then WHAT IS THE ****IN' POINT if every time the public get started with their collections they become irrelevant? As it is the public are having a hard time excepting that yet again a new format is comming along. D.V.D. is only ten years old and frankly 25 years is not a long time to be be able to purchase films on anything to be honest. This is just outright corruption. Is there ANY aspect in life where there is not corruption? I have said it before...the entertainment industry has a few months left to decide that Blu-Ray is the next format otherwise forget it and stay with D.V.D. Nothing is worth this when apparently hologram films are already in the works BEFORE 3-D films will be released. The entertainment industry had not only figure it out but figure it out quick. ...and for that matter there will be no point in adopting HD DVD if that is suppose to be the next format. COMPLETELY pointless as far as I am concerned.

no...BD will be able to handle this......it's built for the future..

HD-DVD is the one that is anti-future.....

if you want HD-DVD...then you are anti-future....even a caveman can play a BD movie...

[nhaase]

AlexKx, the 100 and 200GB are Blu-ray, 4 and 8-layered BDs to be exact.

[AlexKx]

That's what I thought but the seventh point made by the original poster and Acended Sayan seemed to suggest otherwise...

[The Don]

Originally Posted by AlexKx

That's what I thought but the seventh point made by the original poster and Acended Sayan seemed to suggest otherwise...

I am pretty sure BD can go that high in storage space without having to support a higher format...

he only said that the amount of space on a 100GB or 200GB disk can only really be utilized by 1440p...

we won't need to upgrqade for another 15 years....but we'll likely do it in 10...I know I probably would...but after 5 years, everyone would be able to afford this..

[Micker]

First of all, any future formats past BD will be small increases in picture quality. DVD was a huge leap ahead of VHS and BD is an increase over DVD, but not the gap that DVD had over VHS. I think most people would be more then happy to stay at BD level forever, esp. if they crank up the bit rate a bit and really use the 50gb+ that the disc offers.

I hope Blu-Ray wins. Why?? Because its the medium that can hold the most data. HD-DVD offers nothing over Blu-Ray, but not the other way around. Price is the only thing HD-DVD has over Blu-Ray, but that will change soon. I don't like sony more the toshiba, I just want the BEST TECHNOLOGY to win this time. I can't imagine anyone buying an HD-DVD player.

[sekrit_skworl]

I must say quite truthfully, and unabashedly that I am becoming very disappointed by the selection of BLU-RAY discs that are available. I am simply not satisfied. No Batman Begins... He's a hero of mine. No Smokin' Aces. No THE GOOD SHEPARD. NO... Noo... Noooooo.... I am going out of my mind by the NO's. This is simply insane, I bought components so that I can watch the movies of my interest at my leisure.... I love Blu-Ray, but I have no allegiance to them... I mean, Sony is a Corporation... so generally... I hate them... but it won't stop me from buying "HOME" whenever they release it. Now please, don't think that I'm somehow allied toward Microsoft, or any other bastard that tells me that I have to spend thousands of dollars and can't enjoy it as I intended.... I am very tempted to amass a coup against them all, but that would take a joint effort of all of us that truly love film and video. I would be more than willing to do this if it would empower us against our oppressors.... Take responsibility for your happiness, Take a stand.


Rangers Lead the Way,
Sekrit_skworl

[MMtech]

Originally Posted by pbnbcr

Isn't that the same thing?

Been fixed.

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

2. Exclusives serve the same purpose as they do for gaming consoles...to help secure market share. If you are having a battle, wouldn't you like to have troops to fight with?

Like I said, I don't think it should be this way for movies. Just because companies do it with their gaming consoles doesn't mean that the same thing should happen for movies.

If HD-DVD sticks around, then that means that it will have stuck around because of exclusives, and I of course don't want exclusives on the damn HD-DVD format. If I want to watch a movie in High Def, I shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it's exclusive to a format I don't support.

I'm fine with exclusives for games, because movies are something else entirely. It seems that they're approaching movies with the same way that games are approached simply because the PS3 and XBOX play Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but Movies don't = games. Exclusives and/or better versions do not belong in the sale of movies.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by shock_terminal

I agree Blu-Ray looks great and there are some titles that are below par.

No 1080p transfer looks better then 35mm, we shoot 2k and 4k images to 35mm. 35mm has a higher resolution.
You could say it looks better in the respect that your seeing a smaller more dense version, but 35mm is still far superior.

Like I said though, Blu-ray looks fantastic, it's just a rather large claim to say it's better then the Film it's transferred from.

err.. a 2k DI with a 83.333 pixel/mm pitch of a 1.85 film shot on normal 35mm produces only a 944 x 1746 pixel image.

A 2k of a Super-35 2.39 produces only a 819 x 1958 pixel image.

On some Cintel I've seen examples of straight 2k scans from negatives being as sharp as 4k scans of answer prints

And we haven't gone to the MTF of a 1080 x 1920 pixel image on a direct view fixed pixel display vs the MTF of a OCN->IP->IN->theatrical print projected on a screen which is much less than an answer print.

And I don't watch them small

[shock_terminal]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

err.. a 2k DI with a 83.333 pixel/mm pitch of a 1.85 film shot on normal 35mm produces only a 944 x 1746 pixel image.

A 2k of a Super-35 2.39 produces only a 819 x 1958 pixel image.

On some Cintel I've seen examples of straight 2k scans from negatives being as sharp as 4k scans of answer prints

And we haven't gone to the MTF of a 1080 x 1920 pixel image on a direct view fixed pixel display vs the MTF of a OCN->IP->IN->theatrical print projected on a screen which is much less than an answer print.

And I don't watch them small

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, we use a Celco Fury (and extreme) to shoot Digital images to 35mm.
2K (FLAT = 2048x1107 - 1.85) (SCOPE = 2048x1742 - 2.35)
4K (FLAT = 4096x2214 - 1.85) (SCOPE = 4096x3484 - 2.35)
There is a noticeable difference between the 2 and we could go even higher. You are referring to film scanning and that is limited.

Not to be confused w/ the DCI Spec for Digital Cinema.
2K D-Cinema FLAT = 1998x1080 for 1.85
2K D-Cinema SCOPE = 2048x858 for 2.35