Star Trek or Star Wars?

[IndyChaz]

Originally Posted by Beast

Star Wars. Better characters. No crappy films. Just better all around.

Apparently your didn't see Star Wars Episodes I, II, & III. Those were the worst pieces of writing, acting, scifi and character development I have ever seen. Totally boring. The actors who played Anakin could have been replaced by a block of wood and been more animated and believable.

[Batman1980]

I'm just a Star Trek FAN but Star Wars will always be the best series of movies of all-time to me. So that's pretty much my vote.

[MCT]

I mean besides the obvious stupid shit like Jar Jar and minichoridans or whatever the hell Lucas pulled out of his arse when he was writing these things...

the prequels RUINED the character of Darth Vader. I used to always have this image in my head of Anakin being a headstrong yet wise young Jedi who just happened to be subtly seduced by the power of the dark side. It was supposed to be tragic and heartfelt. In the prequels, Darth Vader was reduced to a whiny, spoiled idiot who rolls around in grassy knolls with his girlfriend. I mean, he turned to the dark side mainly because of a bad dream. A bad dream! And on top of that, Palpatine never said he could save others from death, he said they'd have to work together to discover the secret. There was no guarantee, yet Vader became his apprentice anyways. I remember sitting in that theater with my mouth hanging open at Anakin's utter stupidity. THAT was the biggest sin the prequels committed in my eyes. Hardcore bad ass Darth Vader was actually just a giant stupid pusssy.

[Batman1980]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xP3fI7yn5s
I just have to disagree, I think Episode III is the best movie ever. Sure some of the lines were horrible and I didn't agree with everything that happened in it. Still the idea that the ultimate hero failed because of his love for his wife is something that appeals to me...especially since he didn't really fail. In the end, he destroys the bad guy and saves the galaxy from Palpatine.

[Canuck21]

Originally Posted by jadedeath

Star Trek.

All Kirk would have to do is deliver a double fisted punch to Luke and Luke would wine and complain for the next 3 hours.

Logan

Punches like these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM

Luke is pissing in his pants

Originally Posted by Wolverine1980

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xP3fI7yn5s
I just have to disagree, I think Episode III is the best movie ever. Sure some of the lines were horrible and I didn't agree with everything that happened in it. Still the idea that the ultimate hero failed because of his love for his wife is something that appeals to me...especially since he didn't really fail. In the end, he destroys the bad guy and saves the galaxy from Palpatine.

Episode III was good, but it could have been much better without Hayden Christensen. I think Keanu Reeves would have been better; same lousy acting, but at least less whiny.

[Trogdor2010]

You know, my father is a big fan of Star Trek (Call him a Trekkie if you must), but he actually prefers Voyager and Deep Space Nine over The next generation and even the Original series, although does prefer them over the Enterprise (who wouldn't). I think it was the developed Mythology of Star Trek that allowed the creators more liberal freedoms to create more imersive storylines (and more humor focused). I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars, and so does my dad, so both.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by MCT

I mean besides the obvious stupid shit like Jar Jar and minichoridans or whatever the hell Lucas pulled out of his arse when he was writing these things...

the prequels RUINED the character of Darth Vader. I used to always have this image in my head of Anakin being a headstrong yet wise young Jedi who just happened to be subtly seduced by the power of the dark side. It was supposed to be tragic and heartfelt. In the prequels, Darth Vader was reduced to a whiny, spoiled idiot who rolls around in grassy knolls with his girlfriend. I mean, he turned to the dark side mainly because of a bad dream. A bad dream! And on top of that, Palpatine never said he could save others from death, he said they'd have to work together to discover the secret. There was no guarantee, yet Vader became his apprentice anyways. I remember sitting in that theater with my mouth hanging open at Anakin's utter stupidity. THAT was the biggest sin the prequels committed in my eyes. Hardcore bad ass Darth Vader was actually just a giant stupid pusssy.

For the most part, I will have to agree with you. I will disagree in the fact that he should have been quite nieve in the first episode like he was, since he was unaware of his gift. That is why I think Episode 1 was not a bad film. It is when Hayden Christensen came in that I thought it went way downhill. This is where I do agree with you. He was reduced to a whiny baby in these episodes to the point where I could not see a connection at all between the Skywalker in Ep.2-3 and Darth Vader. Granted, he turned that way after realizing that Padme died, but he was already on that path from the death of his mother. I just think he was poorly portrayed by Christensen (even though he has had some other good films).

[Batman1980]

Just sick of people whining about SW and Lucas. If you hate the movies SO much, don't watch them! I like the PT more than the OT, oh well. If everyone agreed, this would be a very boring place to live if you ask me. Star Wars is better than Star Trek, can't we just leave it at that?

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by Wolverine1980

Just sick of people whining about SW and Lucas. If you hate the movies SO much, don't watch them! I like the PT more than the OT, oh well. If everyone agreed, this would be a very boring place to live if you ask me. Star Wars is better than Star Trek, can't we just leave it at that?

Haha, you're right, it would be a boring place to live. But can you agree with me in that there could have been a better casting choice for Anakin in Ep. 2-3??

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by drobswim13

Haha, you're right, it would be a boring place to live. But can you agree with me in that there could have been a better casting choice for Anakin in Ep. 2-3??

Hey Lucas made the movies, he used the reasoning that Christensen portrays anger well on-screen. TBH, my choice would've been Ryan Phillippe or Ryan Gosling but I wasn't asked for my opinion.

[assydingo]

Star Wars is always at least decent. Haven't seen Star Trek.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by MCT

I mean besides the obvious stupid shit like Jar Jar and minichoridans or whatever the hell Lucas pulled out of his arse when he was writing these things...

the prequels RUINED the character of Darth Vader. I used to always have this image in my head of Anakin being a headstrong yet wise young Jedi who just happened to be subtly seduced by the power of the dark side. It was supposed to be tragic and heartfelt. In the prequels, Darth Vader was reduced to a whiny, spoiled idiot who rolls around in grassy knolls with his girlfriend. I mean, he turned to the dark side mainly because of a bad dream. A bad dream! And on top of that, Palpatine never said he could save others from death, he said they'd have to work together to discover the secret. There was no guarantee, yet Vader became his apprentice anyways. I remember sitting in that theater with my mouth hanging open at Anakin's utter stupidity. THAT was the biggest sin the prequels committed in my eyes. Hardcore bad ass Darth Vader was actually just a giant stupid pusssy.

Well, at least you went to the trouble of explaining how you totally misunderstood what was happening onscreen, instead of just saying "this sux because the special effects are computerized".

There really was no other way to do Darth Vader. Vader is a slave, not a fool. When writing the story, Lucas had to tackle the question: "how does a good man fall to such hateful evil?" Something has to happen to kill him on the inside. Throughout much of literature, it begins with fear and jealousy connected to the loved one, and the tipping point is a broken heart. Doesn't anybody read Shakespeare anymore? Anakin & Palpatine = Othello & Iago. Besides reading his mind and pushing his buttons, Palpatine also fostered a dysfunctional-family dynamic between Anakin & Obiwan. Then of course, there's also the fact that Palpatine rigged a scenario in which Anakin has to make a split-second decision that irreversibly implicates him into his conspiracy; and it's no coincidence that he made him choose between the persons of Palpatine and Windu, considering Windu had been unjustifiably hostile towards him from the day they met, while Palpatine had always been sympathetic and supportive. The construction of that scenario, built up through three movies, is the best writing in all of Star Wars, and everyone is too dense to see it because it didn't unfold the way they predicted it would thirty years ago. Bad dialogue runs through all six movies, the PT is better and more complex writing.

For me, Star Wars became interesting the moment Vader tells Luke "I am your father". Then, all of a sudden, Vader is no longer a flat archetype, and the audience begins to ponder, "who is Darth Vader?" The PT is predicated on that moment. When people say "PT ruined Vader", I just hear people saying they like their characters to be flat and static, not dynamic. They don't want to see anything that challenges the snap judgement they made of that character when they first saw him step onto Leia's ship, 32 years ago.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Well, at least you went to the trouble of explaining how you totally misunderstood what was happening onscreen, instead of just saying "this sux because the special effects are computerized".

There really was no other way to do Darth Vader. Vader is a slave, not a fool. When writing the story, Lucas had to tackle the question: "how does a good man fall to such hateful evil?" Something has to happen to kill him on the inside. Throughout much of literature, it begins with fear and jealousy connected to the loved one, and the tipping point is a broken heart. Doesn't anybody read Shakespeare anymore? Anakin & Palpatine = Othello & Iago. Besides reading his mind and pushing his buttons, Palpatine also fostered a dysfunctional-family dynamic between Anakin & Obiwan. Then of course, there's also the fact that Palpatine rigged a scenario in which Anakin has to make a split-second decision that irreversibly implicates him into his conspiracy; and it's no coincidence that he made him choose between the persons of Palpatine and Windu, considering Windu had been unjustifiably hostile towards him from the day they met, while Palpatine had always been sympathetic and supportive. The construction of that scenario, built up through three movies, is the best writing in all of Star Wars, and everyone is too dense to see it because it didn't unfold the way they predicted it would thirty years ago. Bad dialogue runs through all six movies, the PT is better and more complex writing.

For me, Star Wars became interesting the moment Vader tells Luke "I am your father". Then, all of a sudden, Vader is no longer a flat archetype, and the audience begins to ponder, "who is Darth Vader?" The PT is predicated on that moment. When people say "PT ruined Vader", I just hear people saying they like their characters to be flat and static, not dynamic. They don't want to see anything that challenges the snap judgement they made of that character when they first saw him step onto Leia's ship, 32 years ago.

When we discussed this, we meant (or at least I meant) that I had no problem with the way that the story unfolded. I did have a problem, however, with how the actor portrayed the character and how the character came off to be too whiny and *****y compared to someone we felt we saw in the original trilogy. Regardless of dialogue, there are ways in which Hayden conveys the character that makes him a wimp and someone with a lack of depth (not saying that the text showed otherwise, because it did). There are a thousand different ways to portray a character, but restraints have to be taken when the character has already been portrayed in previous films. By changing mannerisms, facial expressions, and vocal inflections, you can completely switch the attitude of the character. I have no doubt that Anakin Skywalker was a "slave" to Palpatine, and that he was deeply troubled by his mother and his other relationships, but the way he was portrayed made him look like a little boy who just wanted to sit in the corner and pout, when most people feel that he was so much more than that. And that is something you agree on (that Anakin is a very complex character).

All I'm trying to say is that I believe the prequel trilogy would have been much better with some better acting on the part of Anakin, because the way he was portrayed was not in good connection with how James Earl Jones, and the guy who was in the suit, made him out to be in the OT

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by drobswim13

When we discussed this, we meant (or at least I meant) that I had no problem with the way that the story unfolded. I did have a problem, however, with how the actor portrayed the character and how the character came off to be too whiny and *****y compared to someone we felt we saw in the original trilogy. Regardless of dialogue, there are ways in which Hayden conveys the character that makes him a wimp and someone with a lack of depth (not saying that the text showed otherwise, because it did). There are a thousand different ways to portray a character, but restraints have to be taken when the character has already been portrayed in previous films. By changing mannerisms, facial expressions, and vocal inflections, you can completely switch the attitude of the character. I have no doubt that Anakin Skywalker was a "slave" to Palpatine, and that he was deeply troubled by his mother and his other relationships, but the way he was portrayed made him look like a little boy who just wanted to sit in the corner and pout, when most people feel that he was so much more than that. And that is something you agree on (that Anakin is a very complex character).

All I'm trying to say is that I believe the prequel trilogy would have been much better with some better acting on the part of Anakin, because the way he was portrayed was not in good connection with how James Earl Jones, and the guy who was in the suit, made him out to be in the OT

I think that is true. It's interesting to note, however, that for episode III, they trained (or tried to train) Christiansen to adopt the same pacing and inflection as Jones' Vader voice-over, to make his transition to the suit as seamless as possible. I think they may have tried in ep. II, but it ended up just being a very stilted rhythmic stacatto, some kind of dactylic hexameter. They may have failed in many people's eyes, but to me it is quite noticeable, he is a different actor in ep. III versus ep. II, and those differences are nuances he affected to try as much as possible to resemble the Jones/Prowse Vader in manner and speech.

I would like to add: adolescents are whiny. Darth Vader had to be a kid sometime. I'm sure all the teens are going to flame this comment now, but it's a fact, deal with it. They are whiny, and if you are an adolescent now, I promise you, you will look back ten years from now and say "damn, I was whiny".

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I think that is true. It's interesting to note, however, that for episode III, they trained (or tried to train) Christiansen to adopt the same pacing and inflection as Jones' Vader voice-over, to make his transition to the suit as seamless as possible. I think they may have tried in ep. II, but it ended up just being a very stilted rhythmic stacatto, some kind of dactylic hexameter. They may have failed in many people's eyes, but to me it is quite noticeable, he is a different actor in ep. III versus ep. II, and those differences are nuances he affected to try as much as possible to resemble the Jones/Prowse Vader in manner and speech.

hmmm...that is something I was unaware of. I almost think, though, that after Padme dies is when he should really adopt the vocal structure because I think it is in that moment where he loses all hope for life and just goes on living without love. Doing it in Ep. II seems a bit early, don't you think, vocally at least??

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by DVDave

That was the problem, showing Vader as a "slave" LOL. He was awfully spoiled as a "slave" by racing in pod-races, building droids and playing with his little green friends like Wald and Kitster. Lucas should have started the Prequels with Attack of the Clones showing Anakin as a respected Jedi apprentice instead of a rebellious twat and had a tragic fall from grace instead of being a completely selfish ass.

That's not what I meant by slave. I meant he's Palpatine's slave.

[MCT]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

That's not what I meant by slave. I meant he's Palpatine's slave.

HOW? How is he Palpatines slave? You've seen Episode 3. This is EXACTLY how it went:

Palps: "Hey dude, I have a proposition for you. I'm an untrustworthy Sith Lord who is about to succeed in overthrowing the same Republic you've fought for years defending. I lie. Its in my nature. Now, taking all that into account, I dont know how to save your girlfriend....hell, it might not even be POSSIBLE....but why dont you be my apprentice anyways? Maybe we'll get lucky.

Anakin: "daaaaar.....ok. Sure. Sounds great!"

he becomes his slave after he puts on the suit, but thats only evident from Episode 5 and 6. There is zero indication Palpatine has any kind of hold on Anakin's mind until mid-way through Episode 3. A couple of throwaway scenes in Episode 2 are not worthy of mention. Anakin was terribly written. Stupidly written. Any kind of defense that says otherwise is just Lucas apologist propoganda.

and nobody said Vader had to be "flat and static". Why do apologists always have to take things to extremes? You're acting like we're nitpicking or some shit. Dude, we're talking about the most important character in the Star Wars universe. If he were portrayed correctly, we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now.

[MCT]

Right, everything that happened on screen just totally went over my head. Lucas, ever the enigma, crafted something too complex for one of my meager intellect to comprehend. I see the light now. I see it.

[Batman1980]

I did love The Phantom Menace for most of what it was but Jake Lloyd's character kept it from being a little bit better.
WAH!
WAH!
WAH!!!!!!!!
People thought Christensen was whiny, Lloyd was far worse and had some of the worst lines I've ever heard while watching a movie.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Wolverine1980

I did love The Phantom Menace for most of what it was but Jason Alexander's character kept it from being a little bit better.
WAH!
WAH!
WAH!!!!!!!!
People thought Christensen was whiny, Alexander was far worse and had some of the worst lines I've ever heard while watching a movie.

Jason Alexander is George Costanza on 'Seinfeld'... Do you mean Jake Lloyd?