Star Trek or Star Wars?

[surfdude12]

Star Wars.

after watching Star Wars as a kid, Star Trek (TV and movies...haven't seen new one yet) just seemed to slow/not enough action.

although I think both SW and ST are equally "cultish", I think ST is more "clicky", meaning its more exclusive, so less people "get it"...i just never "got" the whole ST craze. I think SW is more widespread, but less fanatical.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by blu-mike

After seeing star trek(2009)it just blows star wars out of the water.

Obviously your opinion is the minority, while the special effects may be more
state of the art....Star Trek is nothing compared to Star Wars...

[Another_Dude]

Originally Posted by blu-mike

After seeing star trek(2009)it just blows star wars out of the water.

Do you think people will be talking about Star Trek (2009) 32 years from now as much as we talk about Star Wars today?

I don't.

There is your answer.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by MCT

I mean besides the obvious stupid shit like Jar Jar and minichoridans or whatever the hell Lucas pulled out of his arse when he was writing these things...

the prequels RUINED the character of Darth Vader. I used to always have this image in my head of Anakin being a headstrong yet wise young Jedi who just happened to be subtly seduced by the power of the dark side. It was supposed to be tragic and heartfelt. In the prequels, Darth Vader was reduced to a whiny, spoiled idiot who rolls around in grassy knolls with his girlfriend. I mean, he turned to the dark side mainly because of a bad dream. A bad dream! And on top of that, Palpatine never said he could save others from death, he said they'd have to work together to discover the secret. There was no guarantee, yet Vader became his apprentice anyways. I remember sitting in that theater with my mouth hanging open at Anakin's utter stupidity. THAT was the biggest sin the prequels committed in my eyes. Hardcore bad ass Darth Vader was actually just a giant stupid pusssy.

Well, at least you went to the trouble of explaining how you totally misunderstood what was happening onscreen, instead of just saying "this sux because the special effects are computerized".

There really was no other way to do Darth Vader. Vader is a slave, not a fool. When writing the story, Lucas had to tackle the question: "how does a good man fall to such hateful evil?" Something has to happen to kill him on the inside. Throughout much of literature, it begins with fear and jealousy connected to the loved one, and the tipping point is a broken heart. Doesn't anybody read Shakespeare anymore? Anakin & Palpatine = Othello & Iago. Besides reading his mind and pushing his buttons, Palpatine also fostered a dysfunctional-family dynamic between Anakin & Obiwan. Then of course, there's also the fact that Palpatine rigged a scenario in which Anakin has to make a split-second decision that irreversibly implicates him into his conspiracy; and it's no coincidence that he made him choose between the persons of Palpatine and Windu, considering Windu had been unjustifiably hostile towards him from the day they met, while Palpatine had always been sympathetic and supportive. The construction of that scenario, built up through three movies, is the best writing in all of Star Wars, and everyone is too dense to see it because it didn't unfold the way they predicted it would thirty years ago. Bad dialogue runs through all six movies, the PT is better and more complex writing.

For me, Star Wars became interesting the moment Vader tells Luke "I am your father". Then, all of a sudden, Vader is no longer a flat archetype, and the audience begins to ponder, "who is Darth Vader?" The PT is predicated on that moment. When people say "PT ruined Vader", I just hear people saying they like their characters to be flat and static, not dynamic. They don't want to see anything that challenges the snap judgement they made of that character when they first saw him step onto Leia's ship, 32 years ago.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

The problem is with the fans, the prequels are not as bad as everyone make's them to be. They are exactly what they should be, Star Wars movies. For some weird reasons the fans seem to think the original trilogy are perfect masterpieces of cinema history I mean look at them and tell me they are not cheesie movies. I am the biggest Star Wars fan around and even me can see how cheesie they are.

Chewbacca with the little mouse robot on the Death Stars
Artoo drooping on the ground with a wounded western AHHHH!!!
Chewbacca on a wine making the Tarzan call

And some of the dialogue? Please it's truly not Shakespeare. Yet for some incredible reasons everyone look's this over and just complaint about Jar Jar and the bad acting. Harisson Ford is so wooden in the originals and his face is ready to start laughing everytime he say something. He even mention countless time how bad Lucas was as a writer and if I recall we don't see him in the prequels.

So in the end the disapointment is all on the fans for making the originals in their mind something way bigger then they actualy are and then trying to pretent the prequels are different.

Well said. I've said that from the start.

Many of those wide-eyed kiddies who grew up with Star Wars are now jaded adults.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by IndyChaz

Apparently your didn't see Star Wars Episodes I, II, & III. Those were the worst pieces of writing, acting, scifi and character development I have ever seen. Totally boring. The actors who played Anakin could have been replaced by a block of wood and been more animated and believable.

Nope. I did. And I still prefer them to most of the OT.

Especially over A New Hope. Which is incredibly slow by comparison.

[Chordata]

I'm not sure how anyone can objectively look at episodes 1 - 3 and say they are "the same" as episodes 4 - 6. They're like two different trilogies to me - for good or bad (and there are things I like and dislike about both).

They just don't seem to fit together to me.

In any event, I think Lucas was bound to fail: he couldn't make a perfect prequel trilogy for everyone. Some people like it; some people don't. At least we have time and luxury to sit around and debate it.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by DVDave

That was the problem, showing Vader as a "slave" LOL. He was awfully spoiled as a "slave" by racing in pod-races, building droids and playing with his little green friends like Wald and Kitster. Lucas should have started the Prequels with Attack of the Clones showing Anakin as a respected Jedi apprentice instead of a rebellious twat and had a tragic fall from grace instead of being a completely selfish ass.

That's not what I meant by slave. I meant he's Palpatine's slave.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Beast

Nope. I did. And I still prefer them to most of the OT.

Especially over A New Hope. Which is incredibly slow by comparison.

I agree actually...especially about a New Hope. Can't slam it too much though because without it we wouldn't have the best film franchise of all-time.

[KenThompson]

No Jar Jar on Trek. That seals the deal. Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars but I have been watching Trek since a teen in the sixties.

[Batman1980]

I did love The Phantom Menace for most of what it was but Jake Lloyd's character kept it from being a little bit better.
WAH!
WAH!
WAH!!!!!!!!
People thought Christensen was whiny, Lloyd was far worse and had some of the worst lines I've ever heard while watching a movie.

[Monkey]

When people say "PT ruined Vader", I just hear people saying they like their characters to be flat and static, not dynamic.

Who am I tell you what you hear.. Keep in mind that doesn't mean that was what was actually said

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by DVDave

That's what Lucas should have meant too instead of giving us a little "slave" child brat.

What does that have to do with anything? That's yet another sparkling example of the arbitrary double-standard by which you judge those films. You're just going to find fault with everything about the PT.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Wolverine1980

I did love The Phantom Menace for most of what it was but Jason Alexander's character kept it from being a little bit better.
WAH!
WAH!
WAH!!!!!!!!
People thought Christensen was whiny, Alexander was far worse and had some of the worst lines I've ever heard while watching a movie.

Jason Alexander is George Costanza on 'Seinfeld'... Do you mean Jake Lloyd?

[Beast]

Shocker. People are complaining about Anakin being whiny and rebellous.

When it's established right in A New Hope that Anakin was.

Beru: "Luke's just not a farmer Owen. He's got too much of his father in him."
Owen: "That's what I'm afraid of."

Yeah, real shocker that the dad of whiny Luke is whiny as well.

[Batman1980]

Yeah sorry, editing now. I liked the kid at first but all he did in the first movie was cry a lot and get lucky blowing up the control ship.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Well, at least you went to the trouble of explaining how you totally misunderstood what was happening onscreen, instead of just saying "this sux because the special effects are computerized".

There really was no other way to do Darth Vader. Vader is a slave, not a fool. When writing the story, Lucas had to tackle the question: "how does a good man fall to such hateful evil?" Something has to happen to kill him on the inside. Throughout much of literature, it begins with fear and jealousy connected to the loved one, and the tipping point is a broken heart. Doesn't anybody read Shakespeare anymore? Anakin & Palpatine = Othello & Iago. Besides reading his mind and pushing his buttons, Palpatine also fostered a dysfunctional-family dynamic between Anakin & Obiwan. Then of course, there's also the fact that Palpatine rigged a scenario in which Anakin has to make a split-second decision that irreversibly implicates him into his conspiracy; and it's no coincidence that he made him choose between the persons of Palpatine and Windu, considering Windu had been unjustifiably hostile towards him from the day they met, while Palpatine had always been sympathetic and supportive. The construction of that scenario, built up through three movies, is the best writing in all of Star Wars, and everyone is too dense to see it because it didn't unfold the way they predicted it would thirty years ago. Bad dialogue runs through all six movies, the PT is better and more complex writing.

For me, Star Wars became interesting the moment Vader tells Luke "I am your father". Then, all of a sudden, Vader is no longer a flat archetype, and the audience begins to ponder, "who is Darth Vader?" The PT is predicated on that moment. When people say "PT ruined Vader", I just hear people saying they like their characters to be flat and static, not dynamic. They don't want to see anything that challenges the snap judgement they made of that character when they first saw him step onto Leia's ship, 32 years ago.

When we discussed this, we meant (or at least I meant) that I had no problem with the way that the story unfolded. I did have a problem, however, with how the actor portrayed the character and how the character came off to be too whiny and *****y compared to someone we felt we saw in the original trilogy. Regardless of dialogue, there are ways in which Hayden conveys the character that makes him a wimp and someone with a lack of depth (not saying that the text showed otherwise, because it did). There are a thousand different ways to portray a character, but restraints have to be taken when the character has already been portrayed in previous films. By changing mannerisms, facial expressions, and vocal inflections, you can completely switch the attitude of the character. I have no doubt that Anakin Skywalker was a "slave" to Palpatine, and that he was deeply troubled by his mother and his other relationships, but the way he was portrayed made him look like a little boy who just wanted to sit in the corner and pout, when most people feel that he was so much more than that. And that is something you agree on (that Anakin is a very complex character).

All I'm trying to say is that I believe the prequel trilogy would have been much better with some better acting on the part of Anakin, because the way he was portrayed was not in good connection with how James Earl Jones, and the guy who was in the suit, made him out to be in the OT

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by DVDave

Kind of like..

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1910892

Do you work for them or something? I mean seriously.

[Beast]

I thought showing Anakin as a child was brilliant.

It nails home the point that monsters arn't born, their built. Literally in Vader's case.

Built in this case by Palpatine's manipulation and Anakin's own failings to let go.

The same mistakes that Luke makes in the OT. Which almost leads him down the same path as Vader. When he puts his friends over his training. Look at Yoda's words to Luke on Dagobah in Empire Strikes Back.

[MCT]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

That's not what I meant by slave. I meant he's Palpatine's slave.

HOW? How is he Palpatines slave? You've seen Episode 3. This is EXACTLY how it went:

Palps: "Hey dude, I have a proposition for you. I'm an untrustworthy Sith Lord who is about to succeed in overthrowing the same Republic you've fought for years defending. I lie. Its in my nature. Now, taking all that into account, I dont know how to save your girlfriend....hell, it might not even be POSSIBLE....but why dont you be my apprentice anyways? Maybe we'll get lucky.

Anakin: "daaaaar.....ok. Sure. Sounds great!"

he becomes his slave after he puts on the suit, but thats only evident from Episode 5 and 6. There is zero indication Palpatine has any kind of hold on Anakin's mind until mid-way through Episode 3. A couple of throwaway scenes in Episode 2 are not worthy of mention. Anakin was terribly written. Stupidly written. Any kind of defense that says otherwise is just Lucas apologist propoganda.

and nobody said Vader had to be "flat and static". Why do apologists always have to take things to extremes? You're acting like we're nitpicking or some shit. Dude, we're talking about the most important character in the Star Wars universe. If he were portrayed correctly, we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now.