Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

I also like how many people are putting TPM over AotC. It seems now that the 'trend' to hate Phantom Menace has declined, more people are realizing that it isn't a bad movie. Yes, it has Jar Jar and Midichlorians, but it also has the best lightsaber sequence in all six movies, the only real space battle in the Prequels (seriously, with all of the experimenting with CGI, we couldn't get a space battle as epic as the Battle of Endor!?), and Duel of the Fates.

Clones is just a mess when Obi-Wan or Dooku aren't on screen.

The Clone Wars TV series, however, is awesome and redeems AotC a lot. Anakin is actually likeable in the series, and the storytelling is much better than the Prequels overall. Plus, we actually get some kick-ass space battles!

Yep, Phantom Menace really is the most 'Star Warsy' of the prequels. There's loads of model work which you can actually tell is model work (unlike the miniatures used in II and III which are buried under so much CG that they might as well be all-digital), there's plenty of actual sets and locations, it was even shot anamorphic like the OT was. I would normally mention that it was shot on 35mm as a positive thing, but at this point in time it looks so 'digital' on Blu-ray that the 35mm acquisition doesn't count for much.

But I still prefer Sith over TPM as a straight-up movie because there's more at stake in the story, and we FINALLY get to see Ian McDiarmid take centre stage. I don't mean his ham-tastic Emperor but as the devious Palpatine, he's great when he's pouring those honeyed words into Anakin's ear about Darth Plagueis. I still get goosebumps just before Anakin and Obi-Wan start their fight to the death, and it's still got one of the best lines in the entire series: "So this is how democracy dies? With thunderous applause."

The less said about AOTC the better.

[PrestigeWorldwide]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Same to you buddy.


Still doesn't change the fact that Jobs was not responsible for making Pixar the movie making powerhouse it is.

And repeating the same bullcrap over and over again doesn't make it true. As another forum member point out, even John gave credit to Steve for Pixar's success. GLHF in your hate filled world of anything related to Steve Jobs or Apple.

[the sordid sentinel]

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. ROTS
4. ROTJ
5. TPM
6. AOTC

Going to cycle through these again someday soon. Been feeling the need for a SW fix.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by PrestigeWorldwide

Well, sure GL founded it, but it became really successful due to Steve Jobs, not GL.

According to Apple, the world was in black and white until Jobs invented color. Successful or not, Jobs didn't create it, Lucas did. Pixar under Jobs continually lost money, so much that he was going to sell it several times. Look beyond the Apply hype - Jobs was good at exploiting and marketing ideas, not so much on creating them. And even then, he had a lot of luck. Lucas has every right to be proud of what they have grown into as he was the one who was there at the beginning and took the initial risk to get it going.

The look of Phantom Menace fits best with the older films but even there, there is a huge difference between the look of Star Wars and then Empire/Jedi. It seems that is how these films work - the first is the testing ground for whatever new technology they are using and then you see a real jump for the next 2 films once they have that technology figured out.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yep, Phantom Menace really is the most 'Star Warsy' of the prequels. There's loads of model work which you can actually tell is model work (unlike the miniatures used in II and III which are buried under so much CG that they might as well be all-digital),

So it's okay when I know I'm looking at a miniature, but it's not okay when I know I'm looking at a digital set or model? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. It's still fake either way you cut it, only the digital version allows for more freedom.

I don't mean his ham-tastic Emperor but as the devious Palpatine, he's great when he's pouring those honeyed words into Anakin's ear about Darth Plagueis. I still get goosebumps just before Anakin and Obi-Wan start their fight to the death, and it's still got one of the best lines in the entire series: "So this is how democracy dies? With thunderous applause."

I really like McDiarmid in Phantom Menace. He's so good - very sly and creepy, while still being amiable.

[Geoff D]

Ack, stop it with that Lucas-esque "But it's ALL fake, what does it matter?" bullshit. The miniatures in II are badly photographed (they couldn't get the right lighting and depth of field with the new digital cameras) and they're laden with so much goofy CG that they're simply not believeable, they look terrible.

III is a bit better, I'll give you that, as the cameras got better and the integration between the miniatures and the CG is a lot more seamless, but then George undoes that with the awful usage of CG Clone Trooper bodies with Tem Morrison's head (plus a few awful CG heads in long shots) which looks soooo fake. Don't get me wrong, I think the all-CG troopers look great in both II and III, but mixing them reality just doesn't work.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ack, stop it with that Lucas-esque "But it's ALL fake, what does it matter?" bullshit.

It's not bullshit. It's logic.

[Geoff D]

But movies aren't always about cold logic.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ack, stop it with that Lucas-esque "But it's ALL fake, what does it matter?" bullshit. The miniatures in II are badly photographed (they couldn't get the right lighting and depth of field with the new digital cameras) and they're laden with so much goofy CG that they're simply not believeable, they look terrible.

Some models, but there are models look outstanding IMO. The interior of the Jedi temple when Obi-Wan goes to see Yoda and the Younglings. A lot of the Coruscant cityscape, especially at night. Mos Espa. Naboo. The Jedi Library. Kamino city.


I think a lot of the "artificial" look of Geonosis exteriors was because of the skies and subsequent Mars-like lighting. We have no reference for it in the real world, so it looks fake to us.





Put a clone trooper or battle droid against that background and everything will look fake.

[Geoff D]

Who said Geonosis looked "artificial? I love the Geonosis exterior, it simply looks like a desert coloured red, which is fine, whether or not it's got Clone Troopers in front of it.

But all of those other miniatures you mention look far too clean and anodyne and, well, digital. They're micro-managed (in CG terms) to such an extent that all of their tangibly 'real' qualities are subsumed by all those extra pixels. The compositing never looks all that seamless either, which wasn't helped by the depth-of-field problem, and that certainly doesn't help to sell the illusion.

Naturally, that's not an issue with the shots of CG droids attacking CG troopers against a CG background, I think that stuff's thrilling. When Yoda says "Around the survivors a perimeter create" he looks about as photo real as any CG character I've ever seen in that one shot, it's brilliant.

[HeavyHitter]

I think some of the CG in Attack of the Clones was not very good.

The clone troopers looked poor. The asteroids looked too fake in the chase with Jango Fett and the near ending scene with the Star Destroyers taking off looked very artificial.

The asteroids and Star Destroyer models in Empire looked FAR better.

I thought Geonosis looked pretty good as well as inside of the caves and droid factory.

[Geoff D]

I thought the troopers looked awesome, and I still do. The attention to detail is superb, you can see the tiny folds in the black material underneath their armour, and they look great all dirtied up in the heat of battle.

[HeavyHitter]

They looked a little wonky in motion though - in some scenes.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Who said Geonosis looked "artificial? I love the Geonosis exterior, it simply looks like a desert coloured red, which is fine, whether or not it's got Clone Troopers in front of it.

But all of those other miniatures you mention look far too clean and anodyne and, well, digital. They're micro-managed (in CG terms) to such an extent that all of their tangibly 'real' qualities are subsumed by all those extra pixels. The compositing never looks all that seamless either, which wasn't helped by the depth-of-field problem, and that certainly doesn't help to sell the illusion.

Naturally, that's not an issue with the shots of CG droids attacking CG troopers against a CG background, I think that stuff's thrilling. When Yoda says "Around the survivors a perimeter create" he looks about as photo real as any CG character I've ever seen in that one shot, it's brilliant.

I challenge you to watch the prequels with me, and tell me how the VFX were done, and where you can see the seams, etc..
In TPM there was ONE shot that was untouched by VFX. ONE!
You have no idea how much seamless work is in these films.

[Saturius]

Well don't count me as one who likes TPM over AoTC. TPM to me is still the worst Star Wars movie imo. Jar Jar is horrible. Anakin is horrible as well as the actor(he's a kid, but that doesn't make it more tolerable for me.) The Gungans were very annoying and when we finally get to Coruscant, the movie comes to a C.R.A.W.L. I realize George had to show the makings of the Empire, but all those political scenes were terrible and really seemed to drag. They were probably necessary but politics usually aren't engaging in real life and they sure as hell aren't in movies, least of all Star Wars.

Portman was at her worst with the unbelievably stiff Padme she was forced to act out. I could go on and on. I'm not sure why public tide is turning more favorably towards the movie(if it really is at all), cause for me only the beginning scenes(before they touched down on Naboo), and the end battle scenes when they return to Naboo, are the only entertaining parts. Maul was ok, but too bland and gimmicky for my tastes. All portions of Tattoine in the movie are B.O.R.I.N.G and that POD race went on far too long.

Aotc I thought was just a HUGE improvement. Hayden and Anakin are still god awful, and the love scenes are out of this world bad, but at least the actual love scenes only total around 10 minutes combined, so once you get past that and are able to ignore it, the rest of the film is quite good. Except for the Tattooine section of the movie. That kinda drags, but I always feel like the Tattoine scenes in Star Wars are the least enjoyable parts of all the Star Wars movies. Portman again gives a bad performance, but at least she isn't so stiff and emotionless like she had to be in the first one. Dooku I thought was a better villain(helps that he was portrayed by Lee), and I thought Yoda was very cool. I really liked the detective story for Obi Wan and the final Jedi battle in the arena was awesome.

In any case, I just can't see why anyone would say it's worse than TPM. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

I challenge you to watch the prequels with me, and tell me how the VFX were done, and where you can see the seams, etc..
In TPM there was ONE shot that was untouched by VFX. ONE!
You have no idea how much seamless work is in these films.

Right, right, I've got no idea. I've only got all the 'Art of' books, the making of books, the Prequel Chronicles etc.

Christ, why is it all or nothing with Star Wars these days? Why do people either love it beyond all reason and criticism, or hate it with every fibre of their being?

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Right, right, I've got no idea. I've only got all the 'Art of' books, the making of books, the Prequel Chronicles etc.

Christ, why is it all or nothing with Star Wars these days? Why do people either love it beyond all reason and criticism, or hate it with every fibre of their being?

I'm a split personality myself...I love the UOT with every fiber of my being and detest Clones and Sith with everything in me.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Because the most faithful versions are still on VHS or Laserdisc.

That is to much of a wait for the hardcore fans quite honestly. You make people wait like 20 years+ for the upgrade to the definitive version, and yeah people are gonna get a little bat shit crazy.

I've personally just gotten over it, and no longer much care for the franchise. The last time I bought Star Wars was on VHS. I just don't care anymore.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

I've personally just gotten over it, and no longer much care for the franchise. The last time I bought Star Wars was on VHS. I just don't care anymore.

Yeah. I own the first DVD version, but I haven't purchased anything since then because I'm just not into the new cuts. Call me nitpicky if you like, but I just don't enjoy watching the films after the changes, so why would I buy them? And the whole thing has just kind of turned me off Star Wars a good bit in general.

If they release the original cuts on blu ray though, I'll be all over it.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Christ, why is it all or nothing with Star Wars these days? Why do people either love it beyond all reason and criticism, or hate it with every fibre of their being?

It's not just Star Wars, everything is either great or it sucks.